I think we've discussed this before via emails, but since we have a bunch of new owners with perhaps some varied experience I thought I'd post it again...My experience with autocrossing my Lister over the past year has led me to envy the competitors with adjustable shocks on their cars. The lot where we typically hold our local events is bumpy and getting increasingly so over time. Last weekend I was pitted next to a friend with a late-model ('94) C4 'Vette running QA1 double-adjustable shocks, and watched him changing the settings after each run until he was happy with the car's response over the bumps. I would love to have the ability to do the same, but I'm not sure there is an adjustable shock option out there for those of us with Beck cars that have early C4 suspension pieces.Any thoughts, or suggestions?
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Well I bit the bullet and hooked up the Koni rear coilovers using just the single cantilever 1/2" Grade 8 bolts with appropriate spacers and ran it on the track this weekend with absolutely no problems. In fact they worked GREAT! I checked the bolts after each session and they were perfect. So at least on a decent surface they are sufficiently stong enough to work but I still wonder what will happen if I drop a wheel off the edge of the track or hit some serious curbing. I think there are some additional minor modifications that I will try but at least now we have some data to start from. Note the Koni 8212 coilover shocks that I have use 2-1/4 ID springs so they are fairly narrow and do not require a lot of offset to clear the suspension and frame so if you plan to go this single bolt cantilever route remember to use smaller OD units or you will be testing uncharted waters.
Ok I finally got around to taking some photos of my rear suspension setup for those of you who are interested. Only component remaining to be swapped out are the toe rods but I think in reality there will be almost no real improvement from that alone since they already utilize metal joints.
And a gratuitous shot of my sexy Tilton brake/clutch pedals.
Sweet, Alan. The car must be two or three seconds faster at Firebird based on the coolness of the components alone.
Bob
Alan Blair > Bob BrzezinskiJanuary 8, 2009 at 4:00pm
No doubt about it. ;-)
Honestly I wish the components were not anodized red like that, a bit too much bling for me. One of these days after they get nasty looking I will probably just paint them or remove all the red for a natural aluminium finish.
Thanks, Mike. I used to have Aldan coilovers on my ERA Cobra but hadn't even thought of them. I'll have to check out Coleman...always looking for another racing parts catalog!
Hi Bob , the shocks on the front of my Lister are adjustable, They are Aldan with a 1-7 damping setting and work well for me . Do not know what the cost is , Get if you do not have a Coleman racing catalog ,they have a lot of great stuff.also. Mike
Howdy Gang - I am posting some of our email on the shock discussion to this thread that we already had started. Initial posts start at the bottom with the most recent at the top.
I ran 400s in my last Cobra with a similar setup, and since we put 425s up
front in the Lister COOX car, we can set the dampners on #2 stiffness of 12,
and it rides like a dream. Car is actually smoother and more controlled
driving than my ERA Cobra, which is smoother than my Honda Accord!
Amazing... Duane
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Shimp
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:14 PM
We actually went all the way down 185 lb springs in the front and they work
great. I don't even see how you would have any suspension left in front
with 425lb springs but that car must set up differently.
Also, we messed around for quite some time and decided to drop the
adjustable shocks from the rear even on the race cars. We got the
adjustable ones set to where we wanted them, then sent them back to the
company for dyno testing and now they just ship us that shock as a
non-adjustable which allows for several inches more of travel. It was a
long process that I wasn't completely involved with but Luke said he's happy
to talk about it if you want to call him on his cell at 310-948-1489.
Eric Shimp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Blair, Alan
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:47 PM
Ed: We have to REDUCE the lower mount to 1/2" (from 5/8"), right? IOW, we have a 5/8" stud onto which our shock's eyelets must slip over (I'm not at my shop, so I can't check).
Alan: Yep the stock lower rear stud is either 5/8" or 16mm through the knuckle and where the stock shock sleeve sits on it and then goes down to 7/16" threads (I think) to handle the nut that holds the shock on to it.
Ed: If we go with coil-overs, isn't there a frame clearance issue, too?
Alan: Yes there is a clearance issue to be dealt with and the bottom mount is likely too short. Really depends on the coil diameter of the shock that you use and how far inboard the top mount goes since the point of contact is on that diagonal frame element.
Ed: If so, I'm real curious to see how you did the lower conversion....picture maybe?
Alan: I will see if I can get it posted later tonight but remember I don't have the coils on (just the shocks) so you wont be able to see how the all critical clearances are.
Ed: Are both the top and bottom studs cantilevered (i.e., without support on BOTH sides of the eyelet)?
Alan: Yep. In fact one of my stock shocks that came on the car had its rubber bushing pulling out of the eyelet and could have completely disconnected. That is why I decided to go ahead and switch to coilovers since I did not want to replace the stock shocks with something that would just end up doing that again.
Ed: You bring up a good point about the weight being supported with the coil-overs vs the monoleaf. I seem to remember a LOT of fiberglas near the top-mount which would make welding tricky up there...but that's nothing a saber saw and a sheet of aluminum can't fix.
Alan: On Bob Seigel's car the builder welded a cross member from one frame rail to the other side frame rail and then bolted the coilovers to that. Since I really did not need all that much clearance I was going to try to utilize some flat mount shock brackets on the upper and lower mounts and bolt them on instead of welding them (I have not welded in a very long time and dont have the equipment) but the ears on them ended up being too short to clear the bolt so I had to scrap that idea until I can find longer ones. I had a lead on a custom lower mount for C4 Corvettes but have been waiting a very long time for them to be available for sale and have no idea what they will cost. There are some other lower mounts available for C4 based hot rods that utilize the mounting points for the shock and both trailing arms but I am not 100% certain they will clear everything, they may be a bit heavy, and they run >$200 for the pair. Bob's builder fabricated something similar for his car.
Ed: From talking to this company, I think they're willing to press in any eyelet size we need.
Alan: If the shocks can accommodate the larger bearing then that makes it a little better but not all shocks can. Also need to think about the angles involved and a thicker bolt may impede the shock bearing articulation and angle they can be mounted at. The angles change quite a bit as I witnessed when doing my trial and error test fitting.
Alan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ed Dellis
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:20 PM
Let me make sure I understand...
We have to REDUCE the lower mount to 1/2" (from 5/8"), right? IOW, we have a 5/8" stud onto which our shock's eyelets must slip over (I'm not at my shop, so I can't check).
If we go with coil-overs, isn't there a frame clearance issue, too?
If so, I'm real curious to see how you did the lower conversion....picture maybe?
Are both the top and bottom studs cantilevered (i.e., without support on BOTH sides of the eyelet)?
You bring up a good point about the weight being supported with the coil-overs vs the monoleaf. I seem to remember a LOT of fiberglas near the top-mount which would make welding tricky up there...but that's nothing a saber saw and a sheet of aluminum can't fix.
From talking to this company, I think they're willing to press in any eyelet size we need.
Hey see if they can come up with some rear coil over mounts, thats the issue I am trying to figure out. Our cars just have a single 16mm (or 5/8") bolt on the bottom and a 1/2" on the top in single shear. The eyelets on most coilover shocks are 1/2" so something special must be done on the bottom to even bolt it up. Right now I have a 5/8" x 1/2" bushing in the knuckle with a 1/2" grade 8 bolt and a spacer to mount the bottom of the shock up and the top is just another grade 8 1/2" bolt but I dont trust it with all the weight of the car on it so that is why I am running the shock only right now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blair, Alan
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:19 PM
Hi Duane,
My car used to be very flat through turns according to others and in a few photos I have seen. This has changed based on this video and with a few new photos that were taken that day as well. The Beck/Avanti cars all came with a monoleaf in the rear and coilovers in the front.
Is Kevin's car still running the standard control arms/links and rubber bushings in the rear? If so then it is a bit of apples to oranges comparison since the stock suspension movement is significantly more difficult/bound-up than with the spherical bearings that I now have. Every time I hear about anyone freeing up their suspension this way I always learn that they need to increase their spring rate.
Responses to your questions follow.
Q: What length spring do you have in the back?
A: Currently I am still running the narrowed C4 monoleaf that came on the car. When I get the coilover mounting issues resolved it will be an 8" spring.
Q: What is the spring lb. rate on the front springs?
A: Good question, unfortunately I don't recall. It is whatever Chuck Beck put on the car (Carrera coilovers). I plan to change these out some time early next year. If I get a chance I will pull it and see if it is labeled.
Q: What is the spring lb. rate on the rear springs?
A: On the shortened monoleaf who knows. When I put the coilover springs on they will be 500 lbs. This was the recommendation from Performance Shock Inc. who helped do all the calculations, etc. They were pretty thorough in requesting corner weights, individual wheel unsprung weights, ratios, etc. so I expect that they should not be too far off. Much better guesses than mine anyways... ;-)
Q: Do you have a rear sway bar on the car?
A: No sway bars front or back. A few folks have them on the front but it was not a standard item.
Q: What dampners/shocks are you running on the back?
A: The car came with some really cheap Monroe shocks (like $20 each). The coilovers are custom built Koni 8212 dual adjustable units but I was not running the springs on them at that event due to not sorting out the mounting in time. If you have any input on the rear shock mounts we are all ears. I have them bolted up as shocks right now pretty much as the stock ones were mounted but don't trust the weight of the car on two 1/2" cantilevered single shear bolts.
Cheers,
Alan
----Original Message-----
On Nov 17, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Duane Cooney wrote:
Hi Alan,
Just trying to get an idea about your car for what I could see in the video as you were coming through turns. Kevin's Lister COOX car steers pretty flat and we don't even have front or rear sway bars on the car yet. We did have to go up in weight in the front to get rid of some lean but just going from 350lb. to 425lb. made a big difference up front. We have not had to do anything to the back since the QA1 shocks we used are so adjustable. Just for curiosity, I did not gather whether you have a leaf+coilovers or just a leaf spring setup on the rear?. We went with coilovers in the back of Lister COOX, not using the leaf setup. So far so good...but maybe a tad more tuning yet. Would like to get an idea for comparison as we've not put race tires on the car yet and it could change everything all over again, or I suspect. For your car...
What length spring do you have in the back?
What is the spring lb. rate on the front springs?
What is the spring lb. rate on the rear springs?
Do you have a rear sway bar on the car?
What dampners/shocks are you running on the back?
Oh the fronts! I have been working on the rear of my car for so long I forgot there was another half of a car up there. I have never measured it but my guess is that it is .500" since I think that is how Carrera and most coil over shocks come. Chuck fabbed up a custom lower mount since these are typically some sort of t-bar arrangement on the C4's but I have no idea if they will work for other shocks or not. You need to consider the width of that spherical bearing for that custom mount since as I recall it is fairly narrow. If the lower mount will not work there are aftermarket solutions for the front lower mount available, from www.hardbarusa.com and others but you should speak to them to make sure their solutions will work since I have not researched that yet.
Thanks, Alan. After my open track event the weekend after next I'm going to pull a front shock and check out the dimensions. I'll update this topic with my findings.
Thanks for the insight. Julian suggested I contact Robispec, but after looking at their site it appears their stuff is too rich for my blood...close to $7000 for the kind of shocks that I believe Julian runs on his car. They undoubtedly know their stuff as witnessed by his outstanding performance at the GRM Ultimate Track Car competition, but I was looking for something closer to $700 as opposed to $7000.
I had already seen that Jeg's stocked QA1 single-adjustable rear shocks for our cars, for around $140 each (the part number for the up-to-1987 shocks is TC1574P). I decided to see if Carrera was still around and if they had an adjustable front for our cars. I typed in www.carrerashocks.com in the address bar of my computer and, interestingly enough, the QA1 website came up. I've been emailing dimensions and pictures back and forth to them and today the helpful contact there suggested the same 4855B shock that you mentioned, in either single- (part # DR4855B, $172 from Jeg's) or double- (part # DDR4855B, $290 from Jeg's) adjustable style. The only caveat from the QA1 guy was that I would need to confirm that they would work with the lower shock mount. The 4855 shock comes with a .500" i.d. x 1.00" wide bearing. I did not confirm that dimension is correct for our cars yet, but assuming it is it looks like an entire set of shocks can be had for either $620 (single-adjustable front/rear) or $960 (double-adjustable front, single rear) and change. As you said, they are probably not the same quality as something like a Koni, but they appear to be the successor to the Carreras we all started out with on our cars, and which have served me fine for a long time now. Given our car's light weight and the amount they actually get driven, I think the QA1's are a good alternative. I hope to pick up a set between now and the end of the year and will report on how they work.
Replies
And a gratuitous shot of my sexy Tilton brake/clutch pedals.
Bob
Honestly I wish the components were not anodized red like that, a bit too much bling for me. One of these days after they get nasty looking I will probably just paint them or remove all the red for a natural aluminium finish.
-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Cooney
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 4:57 PM
I ran 400s in my last Cobra with a similar setup, and since we put 425s up
front in the Lister COOX car, we can set the dampners on #2 stiffness of 12,
and it rides like a dream. Car is actually smoother and more controlled
driving than my ERA Cobra, which is smoother than my Honda Accord!
Amazing... Duane
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Shimp
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:14 PM
We actually went all the way down 185 lb springs in the front and they work
great. I don't even see how you would have any suspension left in front
with 425lb springs but that car must set up differently.
Also, we messed around for quite some time and decided to drop the
adjustable shocks from the rear even on the race cars. We got the
adjustable ones set to where we wanted them, then sent them back to the
company for dyno testing and now they just ship us that shock as a
non-adjustable which allows for several inches more of travel. It was a
long process that I wasn't completely involved with but Luke said he's happy
to talk about it if you want to call him on his cell at 310-948-1489.
Eric Shimp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Blair, Alan
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:47 PM
Ed: We have to REDUCE the lower mount to 1/2" (from 5/8"), right? IOW, we have a 5/8" stud onto which our shock's eyelets must slip over (I'm not at my shop, so I can't check).
Alan: Yep the stock lower rear stud is either 5/8" or 16mm through the knuckle and where the stock shock sleeve sits on it and then goes down to 7/16" threads (I think) to handle the nut that holds the shock on to it.
Ed: If we go with coil-overs, isn't there a frame clearance issue, too?
Alan: Yes there is a clearance issue to be dealt with and the bottom mount is likely too short. Really depends on the coil diameter of the shock that you use and how far inboard the top mount goes since the point of contact is on that diagonal frame element.
Ed: If so, I'm real curious to see how you did the lower conversion....picture maybe?
Alan: I will see if I can get it posted later tonight but remember I don't have the coils on (just the shocks) so you wont be able to see how the all critical clearances are.
Ed: Are both the top and bottom studs cantilevered (i.e., without support on BOTH sides of the eyelet)?
Alan: Yep. In fact one of my stock shocks that came on the car had its rubber bushing pulling out of the eyelet and could have completely disconnected. That is why I decided to go ahead and switch to coilovers since I did not want to replace the stock shocks with something that would just end up doing that again.
Ed: You bring up a good point about the weight being supported with the coil-overs vs the monoleaf. I seem to remember a LOT of fiberglas near the top-mount which would make welding tricky up there...but that's nothing a saber saw and a sheet of aluminum can't fix.
Alan: On Bob Seigel's car the builder welded a cross member from one frame rail to the other side frame rail and then bolted the coilovers to that. Since I really did not need all that much clearance I was going to try to utilize some flat mount shock brackets on the upper and lower mounts and bolt them on instead of welding them (I have not welded in a very long time and dont have the equipment) but the ears on them ended up being too short to clear the bolt so I had to scrap that idea until I can find longer ones. I had a lead on a custom lower mount for C4 Corvettes but have been waiting a very long time for them to be available for sale and have no idea what they will cost. There are some other lower mounts available for C4 based hot rods that utilize the mounting points for the shock and both trailing arms but I am not 100% certain they will clear everything, they may be a bit heavy, and they run >$200 for the pair. Bob's builder fabricated something similar for his car.
Ed: From talking to this company, I think they're willing to press in any eyelet size we need.
Alan: If the shocks can accommodate the larger bearing then that makes it a little better but not all shocks can. Also need to think about the angles involved and a thicker bolt may impede the shock bearing articulation and angle they can be mounted at. The angles change quite a bit as I witnessed when doing my trial and error test fitting.
Alan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ed Dellis
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 2:20 PM
Let me make sure I understand...
We have to REDUCE the lower mount to 1/2" (from 5/8"), right? IOW, we have a 5/8" stud onto which our shock's eyelets must slip over (I'm not at my shop, so I can't check).
If we go with coil-overs, isn't there a frame clearance issue, too?
If so, I'm real curious to see how you did the lower conversion....picture maybe?
Are both the top and bottom studs cantilevered (i.e., without support on BOTH sides of the eyelet)?
You bring up a good point about the weight being supported with the coil-overs vs the monoleaf. I seem to remember a LOT of fiberglas near the top-mount which would make welding tricky up there...but that's nothing a saber saw and a sheet of aluminum can't fix.
From talking to this company, I think they're willing to press in any eyelet size we need.
Ed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Blair, Alan"
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:31:05 PM
Hey see if they can come up with some rear coil over mounts, thats the issue I am trying to figure out. Our cars just have a single 16mm (or 5/8") bolt on the bottom and a 1/2" on the top in single shear. The eyelets on most coilover shocks are 1/2" so something special must be done on the bottom to even bolt it up. Right now I have a 5/8" x 1/2" bushing in the knuckle with a 1/2" grade 8 bolt and a spacer to mount the bottom of the shock up and the top is just another grade 8 1/2" bolt but I dont trust it with all the weight of the car on it so that is why I am running the shock only right now.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blair, Alan
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 3:19 PM
Hi Duane,
My car used to be very flat through turns according to others and in a few photos I have seen. This has changed based on this video and with a few new photos that were taken that day as well. The Beck/Avanti cars all came with a monoleaf in the rear and coilovers in the front.
Is Kevin's car still running the standard control arms/links and rubber bushings in the rear? If so then it is a bit of apples to oranges comparison since the stock suspension movement is significantly more difficult/bound-up than with the spherical bearings that I now have. Every time I hear about anyone freeing up their suspension this way I always learn that they need to increase their spring rate.
Responses to your questions follow.
Q: What length spring do you have in the back?
A: Currently I am still running the narrowed C4 monoleaf that came on the car. When I get the coilover mounting issues resolved it will be an 8" spring.
Q: What is the spring lb. rate on the front springs?
A: Good question, unfortunately I don't recall. It is whatever Chuck Beck put on the car (Carrera coilovers). I plan to change these out some time early next year. If I get a chance I will pull it and see if it is labeled.
Q: What is the spring lb. rate on the rear springs?
A: On the shortened monoleaf who knows. When I put the coilover springs on they will be 500 lbs. This was the recommendation from Performance Shock Inc. who helped do all the calculations, etc. They were pretty thorough in requesting corner weights, individual wheel unsprung weights, ratios, etc. so I expect that they should not be too far off. Much better guesses than mine anyways... ;-)
Q: Do you have a rear sway bar on the car?
A: No sway bars front or back. A few folks have them on the front but it was not a standard item.
Q: What dampners/shocks are you running on the back?
A: The car came with some really cheap Monroe shocks (like $20 each). The coilovers are custom built Koni 8212 dual adjustable units but I was not running the springs on them at that event due to not sorting out the mounting in time. If you have any input on the rear shock mounts we are all ears. I have them bolted up as shocks right now pretty much as the stock ones were mounted but don't trust the weight of the car on two 1/2" cantilevered single shear bolts.
Cheers,
Alan
----Original Message-----
On Nov 17, 2008, at 12:53 PM, Duane Cooney wrote:
Hi Alan,
Just trying to get an idea about your car for what I could see in the video as you were coming through turns. Kevin's Lister COOX car steers pretty flat and we don't even have front or rear sway bars on the car yet. We did have to go up in weight in the front to get rid of some lean but just going from 350lb. to 425lb. made a big difference up front. We have not had to do anything to the back since the QA1 shocks we used are so adjustable. Just for curiosity, I did not gather whether you have a leaf+coilovers or just a leaf spring setup on the rear?. We went with coilovers in the back of Lister COOX, not using the leaf setup. So far so good...but maybe a tad more tuning yet. Would like to get an idea for comparison as we've not put race tires on the car yet and it could change everything all over again, or I suspect. For your car...
What length spring do you have in the back?
What is the spring lb. rate on the front springs?
What is the spring lb. rate on the rear springs?
Do you have a rear sway bar on the car?
What dampners/shocks are you running on the back?
Thanks,
Duane
Thanks for the insight. Julian suggested I contact Robispec, but after looking at their site it appears their stuff is too rich for my blood...close to $7000 for the kind of shocks that I believe Julian runs on his car. They undoubtedly know their stuff as witnessed by his outstanding performance at the GRM Ultimate Track Car competition, but I was looking for something closer to $700 as opposed to $7000.
I had already seen that Jeg's stocked QA1 single-adjustable rear shocks for our cars, for around $140 each (the part number for the up-to-1987 shocks is TC1574P). I decided to see if Carrera was still around and if they had an adjustable front for our cars. I typed in www.carrerashocks.com in the address bar of my computer and, interestingly enough, the QA1 website came up. I've been emailing dimensions and pictures back and forth to them and today the helpful contact there suggested the same 4855B shock that you mentioned, in either single- (part # DR4855B, $172 from Jeg's) or double- (part # DDR4855B, $290 from Jeg's) adjustable style. The only caveat from the QA1 guy was that I would need to confirm that they would work with the lower shock mount. The 4855 shock comes with a .500" i.d. x 1.00" wide bearing. I did not confirm that dimension is correct for our cars yet, but assuming it is it looks like an entire set of shocks can be had for either $620 (single-adjustable front/rear) or $960 (double-adjustable front, single rear) and change. As you said, they are probably not the same quality as something like a Koni, but they appear to be the successor to the Carreras we all started out with on our cars, and which have served me fine for a long time now. Given our car's light weight and the amount they actually get driven, I think the QA1's are a good alternative. I hope to pick up a set between now and the end of the year and will report on how they work.
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